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be the singer of the campfire in washington making nice to one another, but the possibility now exists for a real effort and a successful effort to deal with our most pressing problems. >> thomas mann in norman ornstein, "it's even worse than it looks." this is book tv on c-span2. >> up next on book tv, after words. this week, the latest book of life on the left
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>> very pleased to be here to talk with you about your new book. >> thank you. >> your average number of biographies of the course of your career, and i wanted to ask first with you felt like this was a didn't to 85 different projects that others what were the reasons he decided to write this? >> guest: i knew howard somewhat. we were never close friends, but i did know him. when he died i had that thought that i might well be the right person because we sate at a lot of political values and common commend i always liked him very much as a human being. so i talked to the family. the archives unprocessed but there were willing to let me in to rumble around. and did that for couple of years .
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i think the real surprise in terms of the archives was that howard, who seems to be always a very open man had come in fact, that it is archives' quite considerably, committing much of his correspondence and also anything much that alluded to his personal life. and did not expect that. that was the first for me in all the biographies have done. >> host: let's start with his earlier life where you worry will to get information from speaking with family and friends >> guest: right. >> host: allotted to ask about his formidable experience starting with his family live.
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>> guest: howard was, in a real sense, born class conscious. both his parents had very little education. his father worked extremely hard as a waiter, window washer, menial work with the result of having a very bad back. the family had to keep on moving his mother was resourceful, and she would get a deal whereby the apartment lease would be free for one month and they would pay for the second month and take the fremont and then move kept doing that in order to avoid rent. it was a very poor family, and howard new release of that the
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notion that a lawyer to do is work hard and you can get anywhere you want to get in life the media was nonsense. >> host: when howard was in high school he had friends involved in political activity and talked about radicalizing experience that happened, he was at a demonstration in times square, i believe. >> guest: we don't have much information about it. we do know that howard hung out with some radical minded fellow teenagers in replan and that he was influenced by them. we know that a couple of them were even in the communist party howard was not, he was never an ideologue of any kind in fact.
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he was influenced by them, influenced by his own life circumstances. one day there was a demonstration called for times square. we don't even know what it was about. we do know that howard went along lead to have the police mounted on horseback charged into the crowd. howard get popped on the head and will up hours later in the doorway, and the protest had long since ended. >> host: know, as a few years later fascism became a big part of his political identity. a lot of his friends thought the second world war was a battle of various imperialists. howard thought that it was a very serious thing. in fact, wanted to be in the
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war. we talk about how he got vault -- involved. >> guest: he volunteered. he felt very strongly about fascism. i was surprised given the fact that has he had been somewhat radicalized, was surprised that he was not more outspoken about the horrors of the war. in fact, we don't have a lot of information from his time in the service, but i came across nothing at all protesting the slaughter, maiming, killing. i think that is because in part howard was a bombardier. when you are dropping bombs from higher up you never see the
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damage be brought on the ground below. so howard never had to face expressively the results of his own activity, but it was very soon after world war two that he became aware of the fact that the very last mission that he flew, they were ordered to fly the mission even though everyone knew the war was about to end because several thousand german troops are garrisoned there. there were also told that there would be carrying a new kind of bomb , which turned out, in fact, to be unable to which our did not know. that, of course, representative
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reached terrible havoc. after the war he went back to up remember and actually did some archival work there. he was qualified at how much this beautiful little town, a favorite of picasso's, for example, had been decimated and almost all that german troops had been killed. >> but you do say that howard never actually called himself a pacifist, is that right? although this was an experience for him, he ended up having a somewhat nuance opinion? >> guest: i would say so. essentially certainly howard, the human being, was the essence of nonviolence. he was a gentle, kind, generous man. and he never actually joined a
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group like the war resisters league which is devoted to non-violence on all occasions because howard was a jew. he asked himself over and over again. what would i have done if i had been in the war -- warsaw ghetto priapic up arms? where have tried to shoot my way out? what i have killed germans. he never answered it is satisfaction, but he knew pretty well that the answer was yes. as a matter of self-defense he did believe that violence could be justified. >> host: maybe now you can walk us through a little bit of
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what our debt after the war. >> thanks to the gi bill he was able to go to college. if he was already married, by the way. he already had two babies. when he decided to use his ph.d. in history at columbia command was difficult. ammine, the family was very badly. took some kind of medial secretarial work because they cannot really afford a babysitter all-time. and howard did various mid time shifts in order tab of more money to the pot. they were centrally very poor
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and get howard did fix -- succeed in getting his doctorate in fairly short order. >> host: his first permanent academic appointment was the long term appointment. >> guest: he taught while earning his ph.d., but his first full-time appointment was at stillman. >> host: maybe you can come in moving them to the south, that seems to be where he first got involved in civil rights activity. what was going on at the time and how did howard find himself in the middle of a lot of civil-rights politics? >> guest: in atlanta, and even though atlantis is seen certainly today as one of the less racist spots in the son of, in fact it was almost totally
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segregated when he arrived. but, by the way, he made sure that people never thought that he took a job that an all-black women's college because he was committed to the black struggle. we're talking about 1956 when the black struggle was just beginning. and though howard did care about black rights, he was not yet an activist on behalf of those rights. but in fairly short order he and his wife became very active. i mean, his students, the first white women came of little bit after howard's arrival and even then very few.
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dion, black women, many of whom have been brought up in rural areas, they were slightly stunned at this white teacher. there were few other white members, but howard was a genius of -- teacher. very informal, very easygoing. he prided himself on being good at conversation and at entertaining other points of view. he did the see himself as a lecturer, someone who was handing down the truth to the unwashed. the early on created a very warm give-and-take atmosphere in the classroom. and the students came to trust him, even love him very early on together, at least the activists students began to put a toe in
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the water and very often what happens when you do that is, you know, some policemen will throw you up against the wallow whenever, and for many people that leads to you getting angry and deciding, and going to do more. of thish retreat completely and never return to the freight, but he was certainly not one of those. >> host: some of the first political activity he was involved in were citizens, controversial speech to absolutely. any number of times. and never bothered to add up the full count, but howard and his wife would sit in often with two or three black students, and
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when they refused service they would continue to set. what would then follow would be a variety of things depending upon the restaurant, the of the week, and so forth. some just turned off the lights and locked the doors. others just let them sit there and went on serving the other customers the. >> host: out of all of the civil rights organizations and howard was los affiliated with smith. talk a little bit about how he got involved with them? >> guest: well, i think he got involved with their regionally through the sit-in. he was very modest always about the contribution he made. but a number of other historians who are specialists in the civil
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rights struggle call one of them i remember said, howard zinn was so modest but his home pronounced activity that if there were not certain records that we have one would hardly know he was involved in all. in fact, he was deeply involved, and he was asked along with allow baker, of course, one of the heroes of the movement, asked to be the two senior advisers. >> host: one thing you say is that he was not much of a joiner and that a late to be a part of movements, but he was not an organizer so much as he was an inspiration. what were some of the skills and
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he brought? >> i think all of that. what howard men when he said he was not a joiner was not that he was now willing to give in the amount of time necessary to something he believed it. what it meant was that he just had no patients for administrative work and the nuts and bolts of building a benefit organization. he wants to discuss the big issues and what his archives to contain are a significant amount of handwritten notes that howard took during some of the most significant meetings. for example, the meeting that debated whether or not they
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should continue to allow whites to volunteer for the organization. that was a very heated debate. eventually it ended up with the black members inviting the white members to go out and organize their own communities of north. >> host: how did howard react to that decision? >> he thought it was a mistake because it meant to that there would be segregated enterprises once again. blacks and blacks alone would be active, and the whites would be organizing white working-class communities. he was against it, but at the same time he understood it because he was aware, having taught all those years, he was
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aware that there was a tendency based in self preservation on deferring to whites when they were round, even though some powerful young black people were associated. i don't mean i am on their part necessarily, but it began to look to some of the blacks in the organization as if the white students were taking over the positions of lead in part because the black members were deferring to them. >> host: would you say it was around the same time that some of these divisions are popping up in the civil rights movement that our began to get more involved? >> guest: i take that was
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somewhat coincidental. howard was, in fact, fired in 1963. the anti-war movement had not yet really began. it started to begin the very next year. he shifted his base of operation in this family up north when he was offered a job at boston university come but he continued to fly back to the south. he took part in the freedom summer in 1964 and flew back in the number of times in order to attend strategy sessions. it is true that once the movement began against the war in vietnam that power also felt
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very strongly about that and his energies begin to divide. he never forgot about the black struggle or ceased to have full sympathy with it. the demands of his time tended to be more and more in regard to the war in vietnam. >> host: before we talk more about what he did in opposition to the war we can't talk about and getting fired. this is an interesting episode, and it is certainly related to the civil rights work that he did. what was going up the tab? >> guest: of black president at the time. and it is only since the book is come out as a result of a
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conversation with someone that i have changed my perspective of the fact that the black president and howard table so often and finally so bitterly. there were packed up in the summer of 1963 ready to go to boston for the summer. he stopped at the mailbox for one last look because they needed the last salary check that he hoped it would be there. what he found instead was the letter that preemptively fired a mental and not to come back. and it seems like an awfully, you know, rough and cruel way to years of somebody with all the students or off campus and so forth.
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when i refer to really be in a little killer across owner of a speech in which he congratulated the black students for having activated themselves of behalf of civil rights. al was puzzled because i had no other evidence that he was encouraging. in fact, he was a very tight authoritarian figure who insist that all of the rules including no man allowed in the room. a stevens had to wear gloves, go to chapel every morning. a extremely traditional set of rules.
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but in a rethinking it recently it seems to me that maybe what that letter represents is that he himself was walking a very fine line. all of the black presidents of colleges were essentially holding positions of the suffering of the power head the. so we could have been that at least part if not much of his eighth year at howard was not simply that he was mobilizing the students but that he was unable to be his of his position if he had given a speech saying let's all go down to joe's restaurant and integrated come he would have been immediately fired.
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so it was a very complicated kind of dance that the two were doing with each other. >> somewhat less complicated when he was at boston university butting heads with the president of the university there. that went over the course of the decade that he was there. >> yes. died recently. i was just told, for getting by who, some publication had it signed to review my biography i cannot say that i was pleased the man had died, but he would have hated the book. i very much do take howard's side of things.
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i mean, he was such a deep conservatives that on some issues in this even fair to call her a reactionary. he lived at howard and head of the board of trustees entirely under his thumb. the care of the board was a man at least as conservative as he himself. and so he and howard just wed at each other or practically everything. >> maybe now we can turn back to the vietnam war. what were some of the first of activities that he was finding himself involved with? >> 6465. i am for getting myself, but i think he was 65.
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howard was already active. he gave his speech of the boston common against the war which only drew them and did people. when he spoke of just a few years later he drew 50,000 because by then the anti-war troops had mobilized. back in '65 the mobilization was just beginning to roll condolences' started it would quite quickly. one of the pioneering thing, as early as 1967 he wrote a book called. some, the logical withdrawal, in which she called for the united states to remove all of its troops immediately.
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that was an extremely radical position, even into the early 70's. but howard argued it privately. to my mind it is one of the two or three best of his books. certainly it was a clarion call because nobody else and are you case so brilliantly. >> one of the more controversial episodes is a trip that howard made to north vietnam along with dan, very fans peace activist. he talked a little bit about how that came together and what happened? >> it was the result of another very well known peace activist at the time.
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call howard and said that fit the north vietnamese leaders had alerted he in the league in that they were willing to release three american pilots who had been captured but wanted to release them into the hands of peace initiatives, and not enter prison this from the u.s. hear the. and so hard was asked to go with them very in tune errors said, when. he said, tomorrow morning. he left the next morning. there was a little bit of conflict over how the pows were being released in regard to get back to the united states.
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>> it had been howards' understanding that the released pilots would come home fire commercial planes, and the u.s. government insisted on using government planes which outraged not only howard and dan, also the war resisters league and everyone who had been involved in that operation. >> and when he got back there was a lot of criticism for this trip. many people seemed to think that he was basically acting as a stooge for the communist regime in north vietnam. how did howard respond to some of these criticisms? >> the way he responded to all criticisms in regard to his anti-war stance. this is an evil war that we've
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never had been. we are doing roofless, horrible flames, killing multitudes of people. this war has to be handed, in a gesture that i can make toward that end, i am certainly going to go on making. >> his political the activity continued throughout his life, involvement in solidarity with central american dissidents who were being oppressed by u.s. backed regimes, the opposition to apartheid, but fairly soon how board would be most famous for his writing, his history. he had written a number of books in the 60's, and there was one of racism and the self, vietnam, as you just said. they seem to be pretty direct
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out "so a lot of political activity. what happened with a people's history of the united states? >> i think that was an outgrowth of the way in which he saw the world and the way in which the truth was being represented by american historians and textbooks. there was a study done the year before howard people's history of the u.s. came out in 1980. the 1979 study was of a group of u.s. history textbooks. and what the research that included was that those textbooks overwhelmingly ignored
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the lives of ordinary people. that never mentioned class conflict. instead they glorify the american triumph abysm that the textbooks were essentially the stories of wonderful president, general store business income are privileged corporate elites. you learn nothing, next to nothing about what life was like for ordinary citizens of the country. plus, howard understood that some of the figures who were in the textbooks like christopher columbus hardly deserve the encomiums that were being sent their way that columbus had butchered the indians when he
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first landed in the new world and treated them with immense hardship and harsh this. so what howard said out to do without pretense cover he did not conceal his and. he said to my riding to fill the blanks, writing in alternate history to the standard textbooks. acting students need to know about the rest of american history so that they can better evaluate that small part of it which the standard textbooks cover. >> almost every page of people's history we find references to historians. he managed to write the book well over 600 pages quickly. so was hard it said the sizing
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of the work? >> you was that to ignore, work. howard was not what we call and our carvel scholar. he did not enjoy going to make a script libraries in sitting alone in isolation year after year gathering prairie materials howard was much too genial and gregarious and social. he was not caught up -- calfed kind of archival work. i myself am an archival historian. but that says lots of things about me which we don't have to go into. i know that among the things that it says is that i have a very high tolerance for
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isolation and for very detailed perfectionist the kinds of work. it is quite true that up people's history is the result of howard's synthesizing the work of a great many other historians. >> what has happened in the 1960's with the counterculture? was that, you know, a whole new generation of young historians that had come up and, in essence , reevaluating all aspects of our past? one of his closest friends, the historian who was an archival historian side road any number of books, reevaluating the american revolution. >> at the time it came out and in the years it ensued the book was the subject of a lot of
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criticism. as you would expect, you hear criticisms, but even among people who are broadly sympathetic with politics, there were criticisms of the book. i will read a couple of bucks. almost ten years ago, you wrote that he thought it was bad history, albeit gilded with virtuous intentions. could you talk a little bit about some of these criticisms to the book, how howard responded to them and how you evaluate them in your biography? >> in his more recent he is also very critical. i would say that he is as smart as his critics. most of them comes from the conservative side of the track
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and simply are not sympathetic with howard politics and therefore they try to discredit his scholarship. i myself in the biography take issue with parts of the people's history. for reasonable, hoard is much to heart of every american. he denies that lincoln was ever concerned with the plight of slaves, that everything he did a regard to slavery was a function of political maneuvering. i don't think that is an accurate picture. at the to get accurate picture you have to read something like eric boehner in his most recent book, the fiery trial.
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so even i have problems with some aspects of the people's history, but i have problems, as to almost all historians, with every work of history. that is because a certain amount of service to the is always pelton to the process of writing history. on the one hand is the problem of, we are always dealing with fragments of evidence. what comes down, very often, you know, a small fraction of what actually happened in the best command that fraction tends to represent the experiences and the interest of the privileged class is since there were the only ones for most of human
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history who knew how to write, knew of to keep records. so there is automatically a bias simply in terms of the evidence. then, when you bring to that fragmentary evidence the individual historian, he or she is always the product of their own life experience, the values that they currently hold, and so you have this subjective individualist historian interpreting what is also a subjective pile of very limited evidence. so every work of history that you pick up, you can see why the
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conclusion is drawn. so i do not think that howard is exceptional in the sense of there being various bones we can pick tab. should have said this instead of that. of course, but that is true of every work of history. and what howard did, unlike the vast majority of historians is to say right up front, at the beginning of the book, look at where this is my take on u.s. history. this is how i see the evidence. keep that in mind as you read because you will want to know that this is the product of one person's and, and you can feel free to disagree if you like.
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>> people's history, although it was criticized by a lot of people ended up being, perhaps, the most widely read book of history written in the 20th century in the united states. >> still is. >> and still yesterday. i can attest personally that it was taught in the u.s. history classroom in high-school, misgovern of. but i wanted to talk a little bit about why you think it became such a popular book. what was it about the book? should we just talk it out to the fact that matt damon happens to grow up next door? is there something else story out? >> he had a couple of lucky breaks. one of them was matt damon he mentioned the book a goodwill hunting and made quite a production in the film about the book and then after that there was an episode of the sopranos
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in which tony sopranos son comes home with the book and starts denouncing columbus. tony flies into a rage. up until that point the broken only been out a few years, but up until the point it had sold fairly modestly. but with those two missions, the book started to take off. every year, and this is, i think culturally unprecedented, every year a people's history sells more copies than the preceding year. that is astonishing. so this book has not reached the end. it is coming aboard of two and a half million copies at this point. >> and the number of languages. >> so, many languages.
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and there have been all kinds of spinoffs. a people's history of the revolution, peebles' history of labor. >> to you think that there were certain patterns that have worked saw in american history that he was trying to bring to the floor with this book? something, and in each chapter, a kind of historical force he was trying to identify. >> i think howard had a 70's throughout the book and they are with those who were struggling to make a better life, meaning the vast majority of people. and one reason might think that howard continues to have great influence and to sell very well is because we have learned yet
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again that is sympathy into the 19th century in the robber baron. in our own day we have learned again that the privileged few are monopolizing the wealth. it is the old 99% slogan. and so i think his book resonates with the current climate of opinion in this country that far too few people are monopolizing the benefits of the society, whereas the best majority of seeing their life becoming less good because wages are not going up, but inflation this, though modestly. a lot of people who are finding jobs are finding only part-time
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work. certainly i know this in the university system. 60 percent of the teaching now done in universities is done by so-called adjuncts. these are people who are paid ridiculously low salaries, something like an average $30,500 a course, and they're not allowed to teach more than three courses in most places. some places only to commend get their kept busy racing from campus to campus in order just to survive. they have no time left over for archival research, writing, doing the kind of work that might earn them tenure promotion from college or university. and that is why we are seeing everywhere in the economy. it is not just the universities.
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>> you right of of a powerful few have deceived and dominated the new talk consistently about howard's optimism which was a beacon. how do sway the optimism he had about politics and breaking through and people having better lives for themselves and this kind of pattern he saw of people either being depressed or coopted. >> it is that easy. like howard, i am a temperamental optimist. but if robbie had won the election a think i would probably have given up, meaning a would have given up on the american people. but what howard kept saying, and he proved right again late kept
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saying change and the a battista change will rise in the most unpredictable ways at the most unpredictable times. it is quite true that most of the worker strikes that have taken place throughout american history have failed. but some of them have succeeded, and there was one, a powerful union movement. something like 11 or 12% of workers are unionized, but there are signs of their reverse. who would have predicted occupy wall street? to me that came out of nowhere, just as much optimism was sinking lower and lower into the ground, suddenly there is occupy
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wall street. my god. a new generation, and it looks like this generation is going to be different. and in every policy regardless of the question asked, it is always that 18-26 age cohort, all of the polls that have the biggest majority for the most progressive policies. and it tends to be and as you move into older age groups of you find a deepening conservatism. so that is the hope. that is the reason to remain optimistic. this new generation is going to try yet again and maybe with any luck they will have a little
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more success. >> looking back over howard's life we have kind of been talking about him as a scholar and also as an activist. does it make sense to see these identities as separate indian? t think that one suffers for the other? amelya been in politics and your life. >> what howard said, i think, is very important. he said, as teachers and university professors we research, all the he's doing, but we are citizens, and we have the obligation as citizens to deal with the events of our own
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time, to deal with death this generation's current issues. howard certainly did carry and i tried to. we were not interested necessarily in the same issues, but i think all that you could ask of someone like howard is that he actively dealt with the issues that were most prominent when he was coming out, and that meant issues relating to race and class. he was much less interested in the issues that began in the late 1960's relating to feminism and the gay-rights movement. he never set a negative word about any of those movements, but his heart was not in them. his car was in issues relating to race and class.
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>> you talk a fair amount about howard's wife. did you feel like looking at her life was a kind of insight into some of howard's politics when it came to feminism or gay-rights? that his life shed any light of what howard was writing about and -- >> shared the politics right down the line. she was as radical as he was. but she did not share his opportunities, which was true of most women of that generation. but only the homemaker, the person who did most of the shopping, cleaning, cooking, raising of the kids and the very
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gifted person. finally, after the children were row and she finally had a chance to do -- explore some of her own gifts, she became a quite talented painter. they have seen quite a bit of her work, and a think every produced one of her paintings in the biography. so i think if there have been more time and encouragement, as her generation of of and simply did not, she might have achieved in phar-mor. >> at the beginning of this interview mention the fact that howard was fairly meticulous in personal material. did you feel like looking over
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his wife you got any insight into why he would have done that? >> to compensate for the lack of personal material in the archives i researched the archives of some of his closest friends, francis scott who is happily still with us, but she has given hers to smith college. there are a number of such instances of where i got permission from friends to look at their own paper. their i found some material on his personal life and also any number of interviews with friends and colleagues. a couple of them, the very closest friends on my pledging that they would remain anonymous
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did tell me quite a bit about the personal as opposed to the political side. >> we are near the end of our time, so i wanted to talk about what you are hoping to get out of this pyrography. something about what you think the legacy of howard zinn is? >> i know what i hope his legacy will be. whether it comes to pass, we will see. i think howard is a perfect example of a citizen who took on the results abilities that he felt every citizen needed to defend democracy was to survive and flourish.
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in other words to you most it acted even if it is on the local level, and the limited and to price, but you have to be able to associate ourselves with the issues of your own data, that it is not enough to be a professional, to work hard, raise a family, whatever your circumstances have to be. you have simply got to find a little time in howard's case he was able to find a lot of time in order to devote yourself to public affairs. at the howard also demonstrates in his life that when people to act, actively rather than of an individual basis, you could run ragged through the street
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screaming against the war in viet of, but if you have 100,000 people scream to fresh printers trees beside you, you're more likely to get a change in policy . and howard, through his activity , saw enough changes in policy so that he knew that when people unite in sufficient numbers there really can make a difference. i think ultimately that is his legacy. >> have you seen any of that influence in occupy wall street? >> absolutely. i have seen it very directly. several encampments of occupied colin "howard zinn: library it has been called the howard zinn library.
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>> it has been wonderful talking with you today. go out and pick up the book. thank you. >> thank you. >> that was "after words" book tv signature program in which authors are interviewed by journalists, public policy makers, legislators, and others familiar with material. every weekend on book tv at 10:00 p.m. saturday, 12 and 9:00 p.m. on sunday, and 12:00 a.m. on monday. you can also watch online. yet and click on "after words" in the book tv series and topics list of the upper right side of the page.
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Book TV After Words
CSPAN January 13, 2013 12:00pm-1:00pm EST

Martin Duberman Education. (2013) 'Howard Zinn A Life on the Left.'

TOPIC FREQUENCY U.s. 7, Vietnam 4, Boston 4, United States 2, Smith 2, North Vietnam 2, Dan 2, Matt Damon 2, Stevens 1, Pelton 1, Norman Ornstein 1, Thomas Mann 1, Dion 1, University 1, Picasso 's 1, Bombardier 1, Amelya 1, Looking 1, Baker 1, Peebles 1
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